Season 4 Episode 5 –with Sandy Feather, Penn State Extension

In this special episode of Keeping It Green, the podcast team welcomes co-host Sandy Feather as a guest to celebrate her 29.5-year career with Penn State Extension. Sandy reflected on her journey from journalism to a horticulture educator role, discussed key industry challenges such as oak wilt, spotted lanternfly, and recent weather impacts, and shared her thoughts on trends, including native plants and sustainability. She also spoke about the importance of mentoring the next generation of green industry professionals and her plans for retirement, including volunteer work with Tree Pittsburgh and spending more time exploring one of her favorite places, the unique high-elevation landscapes of Dolly Sods in West Virginia. 

Episode Hosts/Speakers:

Margaret Pickoff, Penn State Extension (host) 

Tim Abbet, Penn State Extension (host)

Tom Butzler, Penn State Extension

Sandy Feather, Penn State Extension

Picture courtesy of Sandy Feather

Keeping It Green has an email: keepingitgreen@psu.edu
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Transcript

Welcome And Sandy’s Big News

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Welcome to Keeping It Green, a podcast for ornamental plant professionals and enthusiasts, with hosts Margaret Pickoff, Tom Butzler, and Tim Abbey.

SPEAKER_04 0:22

Hello and welcome to Keeping It Green, a podcast from Penn State Extension for ornamental plant professionals and enthusiasts. I'm one of your hosts, Margaret Pickoff. I'm a horticulture educator with Penn State Extension, and on each episode, I'm joined by my colleagues on the green industry team as co-hosts. On today's episode, my co-hosts are Tim Abbey and Tom Butzler. Hey Tim and Tom.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

Hey Margaret, how are you? It's been a while.

SPEAKER_04 0:50

I'm good. I'm good. We have a very special episode today because on today's episode, we are interviewing our colleague and uh uh co-host of this podcast, Sandy Feather. Um, she is a fellow horticulture educator with Penn State Extension. Um, and she is retiring. So we are doing her exit interview today. We're gonna talk to her all about um her career and herself and who knows what else, probably

Winter Damage And A Dry Spring

SPEAKER_04 1:20

plants and um what's going on in her garden. But before we get to our interview with Sandy, we always do a check-in about what's going on in our work and what we're seeing in the landscape. Um so, Tim and Tom, what are you guys seeing? Maybe we'll start with Tim.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Nothing all that particularly exciting. Um surprisingly, still going out and seeing some like um evergreens with like winter damage from this past winter.

SPEAKER_03 1:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

And um the other issue that's uh uh creeping in down here, which we've talked about the past couple of years, is it's still um very dry, sort of like in the south central part of Pennsylvania. We're probably over four inches below normal for this year right now. And um like uh like using my yard as an example, the grass is starting to turn brown. And it's that's if we don't make that up, that's like three years with below normal precipitation, which you know when you get to saw the like the larger trees or smaller ones, that's just not a good thing. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

Over on the um uh up in the center part of the state, I mean, we experienced some of that same weather that Tim was referring to in the early part of the season, and what I'm talking about is that um uh breeze event. And you know, it's some of the homeowners uh calling on the phone or some of the radio shows I participate in, you know, they refer to it as a a frost event, but it was more severe than frost. I mean, it got cold in the in March, mid-March, after a warm spell. So, you know, all our plants were waking up, and it that March event came in and it really did a number. And so in commercial agriculture, I mean, it really hit hard. I mean, I I've seen some of the uh numbers coming out that 80 to 90 percent of our uh tree fruit crop has been lost. Um, and so you know that's tough for uh those farmers that um you know have the roadside stands or you know, whatever markets they have uh to make up. So that hurts. And you know, I I not that I have a commercial farm, but I do have stuff in my backyard, and there are plenty of things that got hit. Uh this year I will have no pawpaws. They were putting out uh uh blooms and and and they got hit hard. Uh the locust. Um I keep a couple honeybee hives on the property and and locusts, black locusts produce a nice light honey, and there were no blooms uh this year. They were hit hard. And then I guess the other thing of of note is I like to push the limits as a gardener. Who who doesn't, right? And so years ago, I had put in some Leyland cypress uh as a uh a kind of a visual break between me and my neighbor. And one of the nice things about Leyland cypress, which is a southern plant for the most part, um, is they grow fast. So I had this nice screen, and man, it got hammered uh this uh this year because of that that not um um a frost event, but that freeze uh event. And so I was a little out of the range, you know, the kind of northern US uh for this this tree, and um they really got hit hard. So I you know, and then just a comment on Tim's thing. I you know, it will be interesting, we don't know yet, but will this be the new normal where we're gonna just be running into rainfall deficits uh every year or you know, on a more

Freeze Fallout For Fruit And Trees

SPEAKER_01 4:40

periodic basis? And how are our plants? How's the plant community gonna respond to that? Those are my comments from Central PA. So, how about you, Mark? What have you been seeing down on the eastern part?

SPEAKER_04 4:52

Yeah, well, I I haven't been working for a couple of months because I just had a baby, so I've been off for uh for since the end of March. Um, but obviously, like I'm still looking around, even though I haven't been working. Um, and I'm actually recording today from the Jersey Shore and walking around. A lot of these home landscapes have um southern magnolia. Those are the ones with the big glossy leaves, right? Yeah, and they almost every single southern magnolia I've seen is completely fried. Um, I think from from that uh, you know, I think often on the shore it's a little bit warmer here. We don't get necessarily um that, you know, really deep cold snaps that we get further inland. But um, yeah, they just got it's it's oh it's every single one that I've passed. So um that's gonna be a big uh, you know, some of them are just small little um, you know, single uh almost shrub-like, you know, sized trees. And some of them are really large. Um, and so that's gonna be a huge replacement throughout.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

So they're are they dead or are they putting out new growth?

SPEAKER_04 6:06

They look pretty dead. Um, yeah, they look pretty dead. I mean, I uh I'll have to check back in. Maybe they'll they'll start to push out new growth. We've gotten some rain and maybe that will help, but they are just like every single one uh is just there's no green. Um but yeah, so anyways, that's one thing. I um I will have more observations when I get back to the groove. Uh I'm still in in babyland here, but um, but yeah, why don't we bring on our our interviewee for the day because she is you know part of this conversation. And before we introduce you, Sandy, we have introduced you in the class.

SPEAKER_02 6:50

But before we get into it, like what are you what are you? I'm itching to chime in. Certainly our our fruit growers out here took a hit. Uh at Sorghel's Orchards, uh, they lost probably 80 to 90 percent of their apple crop, uh, probably 100% of their peaches, um, and a lot of grapes took a big hit, you know, from that freeze event. Uh actually there were two of them in April. And um Japanese maples, oh my gosh, they look awful. You know, they really took a hit. And uh, we don't have a ton of southern magnolias, but you know, there's some around, and uh I actually haven't seen them because we don't have so many of them, but um, I'm sure they took a hit because those big evergreen leaves just get fried. And uh but interestingly, I have a friend who is a serious zone pusher and he has palm trees in his landscape. And what this man, he corrects these crazy structures around these trees to keep them alive through the winter. And surprisingly, you know, he obviously did not take those covers off while we were having those extreme events, so he probably does not cover them till mid-May at the earliest. But um, you know, they yeah, he was showing pictures. There was a little damage to them because we had below zero uh for a little while uh in late January, but his palms really looked okay.

SPEAKER_01 8:15

But I I attribute that to the protection protection around it.

SPEAKER_02 8:19

Yeah. So I didn't have anything too badly hit. Oh, I did, I did. My neighbor and I just about lost our entire asparagus crops or asparagus patches. Yeah, the guy across the street from me and I. And I I blame some of it on our bad drought last summer because I was not as I was busy watering some of my trees and stuff, and the the asparagus didn't get the attention it should have.

SPEAKER_04 8:43

Yeah, I was thinking about how um I think I've I've been naive because I mean, I've obviously am uh at the start of my career, but I've been with Penn State for almost five years. And I feel like each year we get to the summer or the fall, and it's like, wow, this is what's happening in the landscape. We're getting we have a rain deficit, drought stress, the plants are all stressed going into the winter, we don't have any precipitation, and they get really bad frost damage. And then uh it just I I keep thinking like, oh, that's the thing happening this year. And and Tom, I kind of wonder if you're right. I mean, it's been this is the new normal, it's been uh three, four years of the same kind of trend. Um, so I don't know, I don't know what normal looks like anymore.

SPEAKER_01 9:29

But I don't think anyone for you two down on the eastern part of the state, you know, you're you're in this rain deficit, and and next week is supposed to be really brutal, pretty hot. It's supposed to be really hot. Yep. 98 degrees? I don't here in central PA, I don't know what they're talking about your way.

SPEAKER_00 9:45

I'm heading, I'm heading north up to my mom, so I'm gonna dodge that hot week. So I'm glad I'm getting out of town.

SPEAKER_02 9:50

Good, good, good, good. Wow, yeah. Well, I'm unfortunately over the weekend, I'm going the other way. I'm going to Virginia for the Fourth of July weekend. So I'm probably gonna fry.

SPEAKER_03 10:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 10:01

Find some shade under a big uh big oak tree or something, Sandy. I'll be looking for something. Um well, so why don't we kind of get into our our interview

Sandy’s Path Into Horticulture

SPEAKER_04 10:15

conversation today? Um uh it's such a um bittersweet moment um to be saying goodbye to Sandy. Uh and also, but also, you know, knowing that she's heading on a new chapter. Um, but uh we wanted to take today's episode to talk to Sandy about her career, you know, um how she got here, uh where she's headed, what she's what's the number one thing she's gonna do the first day she retires? All of these things. Um probably go work in my yard. Okay, that's what I thought. That's what I figured. If it's not 98.

SPEAKER_01 10:58

Well, I was wondering, Marion, if we could kind of just start at the beginning with Sandy. And Sandy, you know, uh you've had an interesting background, uh the becoming an extension educator. And so what was your initial attraction to to plants in the beginning of maybe not necessarily a career, but your you know, yeah, childhood stage or young adult stage?

SPEAKER_02 11:20

Well, really, it would have been uh maybe not my childhood, childhood, but certainly in my teen years, I became the gardener in my family. Um just I liked it, you know. Your parents had something in the backyard, is what well we had flower beds and stuff, so my mom and I would plant flowers. She was, you know, you know, she liked petunias and marigolds, you know. So uh she wasn't exactly a horticulturist, but she did like to have flowers around. So we had flower beds, and I would help with that. And I then I pestered my dad to till up a section of the backyard and put in a vegetable garden. So I, you know, that's sort of how I got started. Um and then, you know, seriously, my undergrad degree is in journalism. Uh that's how I, you know, uh, that was the course of study that I chose. Um, and you know, in the neighborhood where I grew up, we were yeah, pretty much working class, maybe upper working class. It was the suburbs, but you know, all everybody did their own yard work. We didn't have landscapers coming in or anything like that. I didn't even know there was such a thing, to be honest with you, when I was going to college. Like a life with plant, you know, a career with plants really was uh just not really on my horizon. I had no idea. But um not long after I got out of college, I went to work for a landscape contractor who believed in educating his employees. And uh, you know, so I kind of learned through the School of Hard Knocks, if you will. I um uh worked at a commercial turf supply company, and then I worked at a big landscape company here uh right before I started to work for extension, uh Eichenlob. And of course is a huge supporter of the College of Ag Sciences and a pretty big supporter of extension. Um and um, you know, I learned a lot working for him, and he tells me that I taught him a lot, which is amazing to me. I really, I I don't think I realized what an impact I had on that man.

SPEAKER_01 13:23

But with your journalism uh background, did did did you write about horticulture or study horticulture in college?

SPEAKER_02 13:30

Or was that kind of a separate track at the in the that was sort of a separate track, but when I started to work for extension, I'm trying to think. Um, I can't remember when I started writing the Post Gazette column, but I wrote a column, a gardening column in the Pittsburgh Post Gazette for 12 years. Wow. Um because when I first started with Extension, I was consumer hoard, like 100%. I was the Master Gardener Coordinator in Allegheny County, and um and that seemed to fit right in with the consumer hoard mission. And um after I moved over to the commercial hoard position, um the Master Gardeners took that column over. And they do a good job, you know. I'm I'm pleased with the work that they do. And a lot of times they would run columns by me, you know, to make sure of the accuracy and stuff. But um, yeah, I'm glad the column's still going, even though I'm not the author of it anymore.

SPEAKER_00 14:23

Was that switch from consumer to commercial your choice, or were was that just came up and you were asked to do that?

SPEAKER_02 14:30

Um well, at the time, the then director of Extension wanted to do away with the Master Gardener program. Oh and I wanted to still have a job. So so when Mike became our CED and I could do the commercial heart stuff, I was happy to make the switch. And um, and it's been incredibly rewarding. One thing I have to say is, you know, no surprise to you guys that um, you know, I would say 90 to 95 percent of my clientele are men. And I am just incredibly grateful that none of them have ever treated me like a little lady. Oh they've always been very respectful. That means a lot.

SPEAKER_01 15:17

Well, I think part of it, Sandy, is you're you know, you're

Writing Skills That Build Trust

SPEAKER_01 15:20

knowledgeable, you're bringing something that is worthwhile to their enterprise business. And so that that that garners respect. And so I think that's a testament to your background, experience, and so forth.

SPEAKER_02 15:32

Yeah, and a way journalism served me really well. I'm really good at researching.

SPEAKER_01 15:37

Well, so yeah, I you know, I'm just I want one or two more questions on that journalism before we we jump off that. Now, in your writing, I mean, I don't have a writing background journalism. I kind of think I'm a terrible writer, but you know, did you feel that that that background was better able to convey what you were seeing out there on the landscapes to the to the general public? You know, a good way to describe it or tell a story.

SPEAKER_02 16:03

Certainly being able to you know, write articles for the extension website and and possibly even in my speaking. Mike reminded me, because you know, when he spoke at my retirement party, um, and it's true, you know, I would one particularly when I first moved into commercial, I was like if I was doing presentations, I would rehearse, rehearse, rehearse, rehearse. And of course, I would be doing this in my house to my cats. And he said she has the most horticulturally snappy cats on the face of the earth. Do they give me feedback? What? Do they give you feedback? No, it was more like feed me. Shut up and feed me.

SPEAKER_03 16:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:54

But yeah, I used to, you know, so you know, certainly as I've become more comfortable and more knowledgeable, I I can speak a little more extemporaneously about things. But um, yeah, I used to rehearse like a crazy woman. Well, actually, one of my first really great experiences, like Mike was a really good mentor to me. And um, yeah. And he he took me to the Shade Tree Symposium uh for the Pendel chapter of ISA. And um, you know, I I got to know those guys, gals, and uh I got comfortable doing programs for them. And I I do programs to for for that meeting to this day, and will continue to in retirement. I'm gonna stay active with the Pendel chapter and perhaps become a little more involved. I kind of found my niche with the arborists. Awesome.

SPEAKER_00 17:49

Have you always been able to do that? So it's kind of funny.

SPEAKER_02 17:52

I'm enjoying seeing um a lot of young women coming into our boraculture. Uh, I really see it like on the

Women In Arboriculture And Plant Careers

SPEAKER_02 18:00

on the cruise with a lot of the the companies here. And when I help with the the uh climbing championships, the women that are competing. I'm I'm envious because when I was young enough to do that, women didn't. You know, but I uh it's really kind of fun to watch them. And I love watching, I love watching all of them. I mean, arborists are real athletes.

SPEAKER_04 18:22

What do you um what do you attribute that to? Like, um, because that's one of my areas of interest within the green industry, is like, how can we support um more women in the industry? And obviously, like, yeah, it is you walk into one of those meetings in the winter in a big conference center, and it is like 99% men. And I had a few experiences this winter where I was like very visibly pregnant and standing up there with my microphone and like men. And and uh so obviously like there is um, you know, we are not at parity as extension would say, with um with you know, women coming to our events or women being part of the industry. But um, what do you kind of attribute that rise in women arborists and climbers to is it more training opportunities or like more acceptance?

SPEAKER_02 19:20

Or I think a little bit of both. And at least the the companies that I am aware of that have a lot of women on staff, they have a lot of support. You know, the the people that own these companies and stuff really want to have more women on their crews.

SPEAKER_03 19:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:37

You know, and I think I think women bring a little different perspective, maybe is the I'm not sure that's the right word. But you know, we're not as physically strong as guys, so we can't muscle our way through a lot of stuff. And so we have to use a little more finesse, and who knows, maybe we're a little better with the customer sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 19:59

Not always we've been doing these podcasts for uh several years, and and one of the recurring things is is the labor issue and how do you get young adults? So, you know, regardless if it's uh uh a young woman or a young man, I I I think one of the keys to getting people thinking about this as a possible career is starting with them young. Like Andy, your mom taking you out and gardening with the marigolds. I think your parents or scouts or whatever just introduces people to plants and then activities around plants. You plant and beg pardon that you plant a seed that maybe later on in high school or college, you know, they're like, Hey, yeah, I had a good time with my dad in the garden or you know, pruning the the rose bushes with my mom or whatever it is. But you've gotta get people out there in the landscape, in into the woods or whatever, just to show them plants.

SPEAKER_02 20:58

Yeah, yep. Because there is that they talk about plant blindness, people don't even see them.

SPEAKER_03 21:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:04

And I think well, I think it's important to to I I think we don't do a good job of marketing this industry. You know, I think, you know, you know, if a kid says to their parent, I think I want a degree in horticulture, and they think they're gonna be pushing a lawnmower for the rest of their lives, you know, so they don't know the about the the breeding, the the tree care, you know, all the aspects of tree care. Like I there's a facility here in in Penn Hills called the Morrow Barn, and it's an event center, and it's owned by the Penn Hebron Garden Club. And of course, now that I'm retiring, they want me to join the garden club. I'm not sure I want to do that, but I love the barn. Uh every Wednesday night, May through no April and May, and then September and October, there are free concerts. Every, you know, and it's local people, and we don't have like big famous people, but um there's a a a wealth of musical talent. And it runs the gamut from bluegrass to to jazz. And I'm telling you about the barn because uh right out front um there's a huge pin oak tree that's 90% dead. And I went over to examine it more closely uh when I noticed the whole top of the tree was dead, and it's got um root rot disease, it's got hypoxalon canker going clear up into the crown of the tree, and it needs to come down, you know, and it's not like I can cut that giant tree down. Um, so I'm you know recommending some arborists to get some quotes from. But it's um, you know, I mean, just some of the members that I'm talking to, I'm like, you know, see this. I'm showing them the conks around the base of the tree and pointing out the canker, you know, going clear up into the crown of the tree. And they're like, wow, I I never realized there was so much two trees. And I think if we could, you know, teach kids, you know, young people, like, look at all this stuff. You know, and there's just there's so many ways that people can go, you know, plant pathology, entomology. There's so many paths that that kind of connect to horticulture. And I I think we don't do a good job of uh marketing this. And what a fantastic career it has turned out to be for me. I I'm so grateful. You know, and I, you know, it's not like I'm independently wealthy. I always knew that I was gonna have to work, and you sure as heck might as well enjoy what you're doing.

SPEAKER_03 23:28

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 23:29

I wonder, Sandy, if um there's a moment like you talked about uh like in the beginning practicing your talks to your cats, which I can do the same to your baby. But and then kind of like shifting more towards like um, I don't know, maybe a feeling like a confidence in your expertise. But I wonder, like, what was there a moment where it kind of clicked or something that you can think of where you kind of were like, oh, like I know my stuff.

SPEAKER_02 24:01

Well, I have to say, I have had such fabulous opportunities for continuing education, whether it's the Shade Tree Symposium, I was able to go to that IPM seminar at the University of Maryland, which is still one of the most marvelous experiences of my life. And then going to the ornamental conference down in North Carolina, these continuing education opportunities and stuff that we have going on, you know, whether it's the ornamental field day up at the university where I get to attend some different talks and presentations. Um I think the the opportunity for for continuing education has been huge in increasing my confidence.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

I do think that I think that's anyone that's going into a new profession, especially young adults, they talk about this imposter syndrome.

SPEAKER_02 24:50

And I think it just Oh, for a while I definitely had that.

SPEAKER_01 24:53

Yeah, I just think it takes a little bit of time to figure out what your job is, your role, the ins and outs of the subject matter. And then it does, as you mentioned, Margaret, at some point it clicks, and then you're off and running.

SPEAKER_02 25:07

Yep, yep. And I and uh the other thing, and I think as scientists, we understand this better, but science isn't a static thing. You know, think about what we've learned about trees in the last 20 years, you know, about how they grow, how they uh repair themselves after damage and stuff. You know, you know, 50 years ago we didn't know this stuff.

SPEAKER_00 25:31

I've got two questions for you. One's a serious one and one is not. So the serious one is have you been based in Allegheny County for all your career?

SPEAKER_02 25:40

I have, although when I moved to commercial, it became more regional.

SPEAKER_00 25:44

Okay. Um, like so in that area, and you've been with uh Penn State almost 30 years. Uh, have you seen um like tremendous growth in like the green industry in that area as far as whether it's like maintenance companies or like uh production nurseries?

SPEAKER_02 26:01

Uh certainly in the landscape and our boriculture end of things, I see a lot of new companies. I really do see a lot of new companies popping up, and they're good. Like these a lot of them have degrees in horticulture from the university or a university, not necessarily Penn State. Um, and they're pretty savvy business people, too. And I think you know that's that's also an uh an issue in our industry because people love plants and they go into this and they don't know and don't really care about business, then their companies fail.

unknown 26:35

Right.

SPEAKER_00 26:35

Or they don't this is just not a course for them, at least.

SPEAKER_02 26:38

I don't have my own company.

unknown 26:39

Right.

The Wildest Client Question

SPEAKER_00 26:41

So the the other question is just more like the play to my sense of humor. So all these years you've been with Penn State and we all encounter this. Is there any one like particular like site visit or client you've interacted with that was just like like completely ridiculous story? And you don't have to name any names. It kind of keeps it.

SPEAKER_02 27:00

That was one of my burning questions.

SPEAKER_00 27:04

Most of the live ones I couldn't share, not at least on Mike. Um it's kind of an unfair question because I'm asking you drive back over 30 years.

SPEAKER_01 27:18

Well, what is the wackiest site visit you went to?

SPEAKER_02 27:20

Uh, you know, uh, how about the wackiest question I ever got? It was in the site visit. So this guy, and you know, he was trying to be kind, but I don't know what he was thinking. Um he must have lived in a wooded area, and he had a lot of flying squirrels, and they kept getting caught in his screens. And he wasn't mad at them. He wanted to clip their toenails so they didn't get hurt. I was like, you can't, A, they'll probably bite your hands off, and B, they they need those claws. So, I mean, he was so insistent. I finally gave him the number for the Pennsylvania Game Commission, and those people were probably still cursing my name.

SPEAKER_00 28:02

He he should be just like very thankful. I'm like, I go, I don't think I've ever seen a flying squirrel in the wild. I mean, I've seen like some in captivity. That's that would be awesome.

SPEAKER_02 28:10

Oh, yeah. No, I've seen them like on backpacking trips and stuff. One night a friend and I were camped in one of the shelters on the Laurel Highlands Trail, and you know, we're trying to sleep, and there's there was critters, you know. I don't know if it was the flying squirrels or if it was a mouse. Like I woke up in the morning and there were acorns in my shoes. But in the middle of the night, we heard this noise, and I sort of woke up and turned the flashlight on looking around the shelter. There was a flying squirrel up on the chimney of the fireplace, and it was just like pressed against the the rocks, going,

Oak Wilt Lanternfly And Volcano Mulch

SPEAKER_02 28:45

Oh, maybe they don't see me.

SPEAKER_00 28:48

That's fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 28:50

Yeah. Over your 30 years, Sandy, what what has been the predominant insect issue and the predominant disease issue? Not not one-offs, but what that just seems to be just a reoccurring, and there's not really any great solutions, or yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:07

Well, oakwilt will definitely be the number one disease in my mind because I I've just seen so much of it, you know. Um, and then you know, I look at these communities like Forest Hills, where every yard has at least one, sometimes two Pinoaks. And if Oakwilt gets into that neighborhood, that's gonna be a disaster.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

Um is that pretty widespread in in in in Pittsburgh, Allegheny County area? Or yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:34

In our our city and county parks, there's been big outbreaks, like where huge tracts of trees have have died. Um, so yeah, oak wilt has been a huge problem. And then, you know, it's a little tough. I I can't really throw stones at the utility companies because they're under fire for keeping the lines clear and keeping the electricity on. Um, but they come through and they do their pruning at the wrong time of the year, they don't use sealants, and you know, ordinarily we tell them not to, but for oakwilt.

SPEAKER_01 30:03

Oh Sandy, you're telling people to paint their three wounds.

SPEAKER_02 30:05

Just in for oak wheel, just for oakwill, because it makes them less attractive to uh the beetles. Um other reasons, not so much. Yeah, no, I and as far as the insects, you know, there's you know, there's been waves of things, you know, the spongy moths, you know, spotted lanternflies. And speaking of spotted lanternflies, I haven't seen one this year. Really? And I don't know, I mean, I don't think that that freeze in April. Maybe maybe they were close enough to hatching. I don't I don't know if that would have had an impact on them or not. But they're out in central Pennsylvania.

SPEAKER_01 30:42

Yeah, they're out here.

SPEAKER_02 30:43

Are they? Yeah, they would usually I would usually uh notice they were around because I feed a feral cat and there would be dead nymphs in his water dish. Well, I haven't seen one.

SPEAKER_00 30:56

How long have you had them out there? Not to kind of get buried on this topic.

SPEAKER_02 31:01

Um, I'm trying to remember. I want to say like so 2014 is when they were first found. So probably three, four years later.

SPEAKER_00 31:09

Yeah, maybe you because like I know in my area around here, um you know, eventually when they they moved in, the wave went up. And then going back like two and three years ago, the population like crashed.

SPEAKER_02 31:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 31:23

And then last year, uh uh, I wouldn't say they were like, you know, uh the highest level, but they were they're on an upswing again. And like this year I've noticed nymphs without actually looking for them. So I think we're gonna have a pretty decent year.

SPEAKER_02 31:36

And since we moved out to McKee's port, I mean they were around a little bit last year. I mean, we just moved there last May. Um I saw maybe five, you know, there weren't a lot to start with, and I had more here at my house, but I have seen zip. And I, you know, I don't really know what to attribute it to. Um, and up now they were always worse, like in downtown Pittsburgh and over on the North Shore near the stadiums and stuff. And I just haven't been downtown since my office isn't there anymore.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

Well, how about so we're talking about the insect and disease issues over those the three decades plus of experience? What about trends? Any trend that kind of sticks out to you that that you've noticed over the past and good or bad trends.

SPEAKER_02 32:21

Um on the good side, certainly uh from the consumer standpoint, the use of more native plants in their landscapes. I I see that as a real trend. I mean, you know, people are tearing up their grass and planting meadows and all native plants and stuff, which I think is great, you know. Um, you know, if you're a turf uh company, that's probably not what you want to hear. But um, you know, so I certainly see that on the consumer side of things as just way more interest and um just more environmentally frack talk much, environmentally friendly practices, more sustainability kind of stuff. Um trying to think, I still have gotten nowhere with stopping that volcano mulching. I had a doctor's I had a doctor's appointment yesterday, and and her office is in a uh one of the local malls. And when I got out of my car, they had volcano mulched a dead tree. And I was just like that's uniformity. Well, you Tim that had the picture they had mulched a uh like a street sign or something.

SPEAKER_00 33:31

Yeah, I use that one of my talks. A little aesthetic appeal around the base of the stop sign.

SPEAKER_01 33:37

You know, you kind of wonder it'd be interesting for someone to find out you know how that kind of started. It is it something that got uh you know swept up in social media, like on TikTok or whatever. I mean, what got that?

SPEAKER_04 33:51

I mean, it's pre like social media, I think.

SPEAKER_02 33:55

Right, it is, it's it it predates social media, and I always thought as I could take you to a uh, you know, how malls are not doing so well these days, one of our rundown malls that they barely take care of anymore. But you could go and you would see like where the landscaper dump mulch, dump, mulch, dump, mulch. And sometimes they don't even really smooth it out, so you can see which side they dumped from. So I a lot of times I think that's how this volcano mulching got started. Just you know, trying to do stuff fast and not not do it well.

SPEAKER_04 34:29

I do think though, and this might be like a um a little uh I don't know, like maybe the tides are turning, is that I have started to hear the term volcano mulching in like the everyday lexicon of non-plant people. Like they're able to identify it. And I that might be a social media thing. Like there might be some popular TikTok person who's like talking about it, but I feel like that's maybe how you know, and then they're gonna start complaining to their landscaping companies, and it's gonna be really embarrassing for a landscaping company to be doing this, but maybe the tide is turning on volcano mulching a little bit. But I have, I mean, we still see it a lot in the Philly area, so that would be fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 35:18

Because like when I saw that pile of volcano mulch around that dead tree, I was like, oh, I've failed.

SPEAKER_00 35:26

It's defeating.

SPEAKER_04 35:28

Well, maybe they were creating vole habitat, they were like, This is good for the mammals.

SPEAKER_01 35:34

Yeah, for the birds of prey. I mean, they could see gay cameras up all over Pittsburgh area for eagles and hawks and stuff.

SPEAKER_00 35:42

So

Career Advice And Extension After COVID

SPEAKER_00 35:46

uh Sandy, another question for you. Um, so again, with you, you know, you've been with Penn State for quite some time, and part of this answer won't play to too much of the audience potentially, but what would your advice be to like um like a young extension educator to have uh you know like a fulfilling and rewarding career? And you can even extrapolate that out to like somebody who maybe is younger who's listening, who wants to pursue like horticulture or one of the other biological sciences? What do you think are some of the keys to having a successful time?

SPEAKER_02 36:20

Well, certainly, you know, having a good educational background. Uh again, I really I'm so thankful for the uh educational opportunities I've had. I mean, not formal, but God knows I've learned a lot. So certainly taking advantage of those educational opportunities and networking with your colleagues. Uh I work with the best people in the world, you know, and I've learned so much from them and have been so supported by them. I think, you know, certainly reaching out and and you know, leaning on your colleagues.

SPEAKER_00 36:57

Yeah, definitely. It's um I've worked three places in my professional career, and I've been very lucky or blessed at all three to have worked with fantastic people who are not only like fun to be around, but just very educational and helpful to be. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:17

I mean, like add on to that question too, because like I started my career at a time when things are shifting from what seemed like the old extension model, where it's like there's a you know, a county agent, they're kind of a generalist, they, you know, they drive around, they talk to people in person, they have an office culture where you know they are interacting with other, you know, used to be agents, now educators. Um and it it kind of feels like we're moving towards obviously a more digital space. Like we're all on Zoom right now in different parts of the state. Um, but like that it has fundamentally changed, I think, how Extension works. Um, we we don't have really an office culture uh where you know, with my office, so we don't necessarily interact with other types of educators as much within Extension. And we uh, you know, we don't see each other face to face very much. Um a lot more consultation happens maybe like through email and Zoom. Um and so like it's a you obviously most of your career was before that shift, but um I guess do you have any advice for someone who is like uh, you know, now firmly planted in the digital space? Um, you know, like maybe there are things from that pre-digital extension that are worth hanging on to that we're kind of you know um uh leaving behind in in favor of this like faster paced, more, you know, uh reaching more people through Zoom, but like are we losing something that we should really be be hanging on to?

SPEAKER_02 39:07

Well, I think we've left some of our clientele behind by going so strongly digital. And um, yeah, and I I see that, Tom, about us going back to the county agents um who are going to be more generalists and they expect us to be more specialists. But I also um I think the the culture really changed over COVID, you know, when we were all working from home and you know, it really changed. And I I have to say that um even after we moved on to the uh energy innovation center, we were very much a family, you know, my extension family. And I missed that part of it.

SPEAKER_00 39:50

Yeah, it's definitely and I don't think that's coming back. It's not the it's not the same.

SPEAKER_02 39:54

No, I don't think that's coming back. I wish it would. Because that was, you know, I mean I learned from our 4-H agents, our family living agents. It wasn't just horticulture stuff, you know. I learned extension stuff from from people in other program areas. And we really like we celebrated each other's birthdays, and we always had Christmas parties, you know, and it just seemed like we sort of stopped doing that, especially when we moved to the business operations manager, clients uh relations managers uh thing. And I've heard rumors, I don't know if this is true, that we may be going back to district directors, and maybe it needs to be edited out of this conversation, I don't know. Um but I think moving to that model has made us less accountable on the local level. I mean, not that I think, you know, I mean, I think we all do our work and you know take care of our clientele, but maybe that's not true for everybody. I don't know. But I think losing that office culture uh has made it, you know. I mean, you know, we have young people come and go pretty fast. Thank you for sticking around, Margaret.

SPEAKER_04 41:09

I mean, I'm here. I well, I think uh, you know, we have a lot of opportunities to connect with each other online that maybe weren't there before, and I've been really grateful for that. I think like I feel pretty close to the other people on our team. Um, I do think that we've maybe lost a lot of opportunities for new educators to just um experience more uh or or to see other more experienced educators in action. And whether that's another horticulture educator or a 4-H or Family and Consumer Sciences or whatever it is, um, there are fewer opportunities to sit and watch someone do their thing, interact with a client or, you know, do a site visit, collect samples, um, go mail the samples, whatever it is. So there's been a lot more of learning, you know, how to do that stuff on my own. Um, which uh yeah, I mean, I think that's a it's it's an incredibly helpful thing to just like sit in someone's with someone in their truck all day and you know, just see how how they've spend their day and how they teach and how they um gather information and uh communicate it to somebody in a way that is valuable to them. Um so yeah, maybe there hopefully there would be more of that in the future. Yes, I hope.

SPEAKER_01 42:41

Yeah, well I uh as Sandy had mentioned, uh um we are looking at hiring more county agents instead of educators.

SPEAKER_03 42:49

Well, right.

SPEAKER_01 42:50

And so these county agents will be based in one county and cover one county, maybe, maybe two, but that's it. Yeah, and they're gonna be more generalists, so they'll be able to exactly not and not like us who you know were based in one county, and we may travel several of the surrounding counties. So uh I do think you know, maybe we we could go back to somewhat of that um original model, how extension was was built. But I think the other thing is I mean, COVID's yes partially responsible, but the I think the other thing going on is just budget. Right, oh yeah, absolutely. I think that's dictating what extension is going to look like in

Dolly Sods Botany And Mental Health

SPEAKER_01 43:25

the future, too. So well, it I I'm gonna just switch gears a little bit. Um, so Sandy, your career has been around the managed landscape, right? Correct. The green industry, the nurseries, and stalls, maintenance, and so forth. But you also have an interest, not that it's necessarily a career, but you also have an interest in the unmanaged or the natural world. So and you've always talked about that. And I just thought it'd be kind of neat to hear your kind of some of your final thoughts on on that.

SPEAKER_02 43:55

Well, I definitely plan to spend a lot more time in unmanaged landscapes now that I'm retired.

SPEAKER_03 44:02

You have a favorite.

SPEAKER_02 44:03

Huh? A favorite dolly sods. Dolly sods. It's a wilderness area in West Virginia. I forget how many acres, but it's a lot. And um, and there's everything there. Like when you start going up into Dolly Sods, you could be in the Laurel Highlands. You know, it's that kind of a landscape, a very densely wooded, lots of mountain laurel, uh bleeding heart all over the place, stuff like that. And as you go up, it becomes a really kind of a desolate landscape. It's it's a different kind of beauty. So the history of Dolly Sods is it was settled by immigrants and uh they grazed sheep up there. And the current spelling is D-O-L-L-Y sods, but there was a Dolly, a German family name Dolly, D-A-H-L-E, that raised sheep there. And with the development of the Shea locomotive, which could climb those steep hills, like the regular locomotives could have never got up there. Well, they they timbered the place out like completely. Apparently, there were uh red spruce trees that probably the the group of us couldn't get our arms around. They were giant and they were all logged out. And when those trees were gone, there was nothing used, and and Dolly Sods gets like twice the twice the rainfall that either side of Dolly Sods gets. And uh there were no trees to use the water. So there's all these bogs and stuff that have developed because there was nothing to use the water, and then one of those Shea locomotives uh caught the place on fire, and the fire burned so intensely that it burned away all the topsoil. So there's just giant rocks and boulders everywhere you look, and the the plant life that has colonized the place. There's a a lot of like the bog plants, you know. We've got uh sundews, uh not so much pitcher plants, but sundews and a lot of cool mosses and stuff, um, things that grow along the margin, like um uh it's not by Burnham Newton, but it's its close relative. I can hardly tell the difference between the two of them. Um uh just different hollies and and all kinds of things, and how they exploit the little cracks in the rocks and stuff is fascinating. You know, you get these. There's a white-flowered hucharra that grows up there, uh, and breeders have uh collected seed from up there and use that to hybridize some different, very popular, very lovely cultivars of hucara, you know, so they they do have uh an application in that managed landscape for sure. But it's uh it's a fascinating place to go botanizing.

SPEAKER_00 46:54

Is that a state park or a just a native party?

SPEAKER_02 46:56

It's part of the Monongahela National Forest.

SPEAKER_00 46:59

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 47:00

But it's it's truly a I I would encourage anybody to visit. And you know, like the first time I went there, it was with the Botanical Society of Western Pennsylvania, and it happened to be a really foggy, cloudy, rainy period. Uh so uh you couldn't see anything.

SPEAKER_03 47:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:20

Okay, so the next time my friend and I went back, we were just blown away because you can see clear down to Virginia from some of these high places, and uh maybe even North Carolina from some of the higher places, and you know, we could see what was right in front of us. Like we were doing a little botanizing just off the road and stuff when we turned around, we couldn't see our car. So that's how dense the fog was up there, and uh so it was eye-opening to go up there and see the vistas that we had totally missed the first time we were there. That was kind of crazy, but there's a lot of nice hiking, a lot of nice trails. Um, and you know, now that I'm older, I can't do some of the ones that I would like to do, but we've done some really great loops, and uh there's this one place we got to, we had to cross Red Creek, and there's a beaver dam there that was an amazing beaver dam. And unfortunately, the beaver dam floods the trails. It it was we were lucky to keep our shoes on, but it was a really wonderful hike. It was a great hike.

SPEAKER_01 48:29

I I've got a couple of my family members that are uh in West Virginia right now.

SPEAKER_02 48:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 48:34

The comment what we were kind of communicating back and forth is that the importance of mental health and and how a walk in the woods just can just those wonders for your mental health. So, you know, you're describing what you're seeing, and I and I like the height too. And I I can just experience I you know, just the way you're visually describing, I can just see me just being at peace, just walking around looking at all those plants and the the niches and the habitats, and I'm thinking I mean that it's just the wonders it does to your mental health.

SPEAKER_02 49:06

And and some of the creatures. Um birds, I never saw uh a uh no, I I take it back. I probably when I was a kid saw rough grouse, but there's tons of rough grouse like wandering around all these sods. I think it's Pennsylvania State Bird, and it is, yeah. I can't tell you the last time I saw rough grouse here. Um oh, and what's the one? Oh my god. I I think of them as like the basset hounds of the bird family, they're ground dwellers. Oh no, not a turkey. No, they're little birds, they're little birds and they have kind of sad faces and long bills.

SPEAKER_00 49:46

Oh, woodcocks?

SPEAKER_02 49:47

Woodcock, yeah. Oh, yeah, okay. They're amazing looking. They're beautiful, they're beautiful, and they would come right into our campsite.

SPEAKER_00 49:54

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_02 49:55

Yeah, yeah, they'd just walk right up to us like they didn't seem that scared of us. And there's um there's coyotes, there's fox, there's all kinds of bear. Now, I've never seen a bear up there, but the a lot of bear hunters are up there, and we've just always been really respectful, like, you know, we want to hike here. Are you guys going to be taking your dogs there? And they're like, no, you can hike there, or yeah, we're going there, so we'll go hike somewhere else.

unknown 50:22

You know.

SPEAKER_02 50:23

Um, the only time I saw a bear was down at Blackwater Falls, and it was way far away from me walking across the street. But they're around and we're very careful with our food and stuff. We won't even take toothpaste into our tent.

SPEAKER_04 50:39

Yeah, I remember when we did our horticulture team um trip to North Carolina, and we, I think one of the last days uh we did a hike. Um, I don't remember anything about the hike. We were, but we were in the Blue Ridge Mountains and we kind of like huffed it up there. Um, I think a lot of us had COVID at the time. We didn't know.

SPEAKER_03 51:00

Remember that, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 51:02

We didn't have to get up into the tab because it's beautiful, but we're like tired and sick, probably. But and like a group of us got up there and it's like this incredible view. Um and then we're kind of like, Where, like, where's the other group? Like, it's like, where's Sandy and everybody else? And someone was like, Oh, like they're botanizing.

SPEAKER_02 51:23

And yeah, oh yeah, we were having a great time because there were a lot of plants there that I knew from Dolly's odds.

SPEAKER_04 51:29

Yeah, yeah. It's like a much slower, um, deliberate uh pace. And um, and also just like speaks to uh your uh like one of your areas of expertise in plant identification, which I think is um incredible because we, you know, we like all know a lot of the most common plants in the industry, but um, but Sandy has like an from my perspective, like an encyclopedic knowledge of plants and the families and um what they are and their characteristics. And that's been such an amazing thing to um yeah, to just witness. Uh I aspire to that.

SPEAKER_02 52:13

Well, it's it's a lot of fun. I enjoy my plants and I look forward to spending a lot more time out with my my uh botanical society friends. You know, I haven't been able to spend as much time with them because most of them are retired, so they're doing their hikes during the week and stuff when I've been at work. So I'm looking forward to spending

Farewell Message And Retirement Plans

SPEAKER_02 52:30

more time with the Botanical Society of Western PA.

SPEAKER_04 52:33

Yeah. Well, I kind of wonder, I know we're kind of nearing the end um of our time. Um, we're coming up on an hour, I think, and there's so much more we could talk to you about. Um, and I know we usually end with like what you're gonna do when you're not working. And uh we could end there, but I I just like, you know, is there anything, you know, any message you want to leave us with? Um reflecting on your career or anything. I know that's all it's a big one.

SPEAKER_02 53:04

Well, I want to say hang in there and keep doing the awesome work you do. Um, I know our clientele really appreciate what we do. I did a a talk for a uh a site one, uh it was one of their their field day kind of things. And and the people who took my class came up and said how much they enjoyed it because I wasn't pushing a product. I was just imparting knowledge. So that's that's one thing. So keep doing the great work you do and uh try to have fun with it as much as you can. And I think in retirement I have uh some volunteer things that I'm probably gonna do. Uh there's a a group called Tree Pittsburgh here that's an outgrowth of the Pittsburgh Shade Tree Commission, and they start all their trees from seed that have been locally collected. And um, I think I'm gonna spend some of my retirement planting trees from seed at Tree Pittsburgh.

SPEAKER_03 54:04

All right.

SPEAKER_02 54:04

I think that's gonna be a lot of fun. And they're great people, you know. I've I've known them for years at this point, and uh they're a lot of fun, and I think I'm gonna have fun hanging out with them.

SPEAKER_04 54:14

Wow. Well, Sandy, enjoy your retirement. I know that we'll see you because Yes, you will.

SPEAKER_02 54:23

I might come to Flower, I might come to Flower Trial Field Day.

SPEAKER_00 54:27

Oh, awesome. It's a big break.

SPEAKER_02 54:30

Yeah. It's on my it's on my calendar anyhow.

SPEAKER_04 54:35

Well, I'm so glad that we got this chance to to chat with you. Um and yeah, just like soak it all in, enjoy the rest and doing all the amazing stuff that you're about to do in in the next chapter. Um, we're gonna miss you so much.

SPEAKER_00 54:50

Yes, you're going to be.

SPEAKER_02 54:51

And I'm gonna miss you too. I've I I mean, I'm sure we'll see each other some, you know, because there are events I will come to. Uh, you can't get rid of me that easily.

SPEAKER_01 55:01

Thanks for being a great coworker. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 55:03

Thank you, Tom.

SPEAKER_04 55:05

All right. Take care.

SPEAKER_02 55:06

And Margaret.

SPEAKER_00 55:07

Bye, everybody.

SPEAKER_02 55:08

And we'll see you soon.